Panists, Steelbands and Unions - Could a Steelband Union be the answer?

[Glenroy R Joseph]

Whenever the subject of unionization is brought up relative to the steel band and pan players, I'm somewhat perplexed.

What exactly would the role of this "union" be?

Is there anything that another organized body can do that PanTrinbago cannot do or should not be doing?

According to Pantrinbago's website, the organization was originally registered as a union, but became incorporated when the membership felt that a corporation would be more effective in developing and promoting the steelband.

 

I'm aware that many are dissatisfied with PanTrinbago as the defacto head of the steelband movement and believe that their leadership leaves a lot to be desired.

This may indeed be the case, but as far as I know PT is still a democratic organization, and the leadership is voted on by representatives of the steelbands.

Which places to onus on the membership to select appropriate leadership as they see fit.

 

I am all for professional panists belonging to a musicians' union, like any other musicians.

Such a union could set baseline standards for the individual performer or band, where they are not capable of negotiating for themselves.

Of course, with so many unemployed panists, any potential employer would always have the option of hiring non union players, unless we force every player in the country to join the union.

 

But in the case of a steelband union in T&T, who would the union be negotiating with?

The individual band managements?

Should leaders of every steelband have to negotiate with a union about conditions  for membership of their bands?

The Sponsors?

I've known companies that would prefer to shut down a plant before accepting a union, and I won't doubt that sponsors would do the same

The government?

Since PanTrinbago is recognized by the government as the official representative of the steelband, would there be duplicate negotiations?

Or would Pantrinbago somehow be dissolved?

 

Having been involved in organized labor myself, I'm aware that the only real weapon a union has is the ability to withhold labor, to force concessions from employers.

In other words, to strike.

Who, I wonder would these "unionized" panists strike against?

Can you imagine one week before panorama the players of Phase II Pan Groove going on strike?

I doubt they'll ever play in Boogsie's band after that!

 

In my experience, the relationship between unions and management is an adversarial one.

You come to the table with a list of demands and they present their demands for the workers during the term of the contract.

You negotiate, compromise and come to an agreement.

If you don't, you have a strike situation  in which everyone loses.

 

I do not see what benefit the steelband movement in T&T would gain from such an arrangement, but maybe I'm missing something, so those advocating for unionization  please educate me.

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

LEARNED HELPLESSNESS: http://www.trinidadexpress.com/letters/Misplaced-belief-in-foreign-...  Know anyone on WST with that condition; the condition known as "learned helplessness"? Know any organization with that condition, where they believe they have to seek help from outside sources? Truly "misplaced beliefs"...in outsiders, foreigners, and foreign countries.

Ghost Who Knows What Our Problem Is? NO Confidence In Our Own Experts. smh.

[Glenroy R Joseph]

Believe it or not pan people, I've learned quite a lot from the "free for all" as Cecil called the discussion.

IMHO it  seems impractical to set up another body specifically representing pan players in T&T, which may or may not receive universal support from steelbands, and which may be perceived in direct competition with a powerful established body i.e. PanTrinbago, and therefore a threat to that organization.

It would seem to me that the best option for those seeking change would be  to do so within the framework of the established body, which after all is set up as a democracy somewhat like the US congress, with elected representation from each band.

One would have to do the hard work of basic politics, which means having an agenda, getting support and running a strong team of  candidates for the various offices.

After all, the current leadership was democratically elected.

As attractive as  the idea of an alternative representative body may seem to some, this strikes me as being highly unrealistic.

Of course , I live in ":foreign", so what do I know?

The last Trinidadian with ideas from "foreign" that was listened to in his home country was Dr. Eric Williams, and I'm certainly not even in his shadow!

[Cecil hinkson]

Glenroy,

All that's needed is the right people in PanTrinbago.

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

FOLLOW UP: I just got off Skype with my mom and confirmed the SIDD's statement that "His mother too was also surprised at his behavior with me when it came to her attention in the early days.", is LIE, that is as BIG, FAT, and UGLY, as its source. My mom confirmed that she DOES NOT know Steve "Sidd" Taylor, DOES NOT know his face (as on WST), NOR DOES she have ANY knowledge of ANY issues, whether recent or from the "early days", involving myself and anyone, much less someone she DOES NOT know! (SUCH A LYING, DECEITFUL, ENVIOUS, BASTARD!) Both my mom and my brother, will be following up with Pan Trinbago, to find out who exactly is defaming my character, but knowing SIDD's preponderance to lying, I sincerely doubt that they would have been foolish enough to make such a statement. In any case, we WILL get to the bottom of this, and the GUILTY party will be held liable. (And, TRUST ME, my family has the funds and the loyalty to pursue this latest libelous act to the FULLEST extent.) This prick threatens people with lawsuits for calling him names, not understanding that there is a legal difference between calling him names, and him making libelous comments. SUCH AN ILLITERATE! 

Ghost Who Does Not Go Around Lying On People, Knowing That Shitan Is The Originator Of Lies, Envy, And Deceit!

BTW - I shared with my mom, what I think of Steve "Sidd" Taylor; that he is a "big cocksucker". My mom knows, that like my dad, I am not afraid to "cuss" these assholes. (And, anyone who KNEW my dad, would also know, that like me, my dad would have considered SIDD, just that...AN ASSHOLE!

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

UPDATE: One of the functions of a union, is to help create employment opportunities. They do so, by working with both the government and private sectors. In working with the government, they are able to get certain laws passed that ensure emphasis is placed on "job creation". This is how NATTS was able to create numerous events around the country, with various degrees of success, not for lack of effort. Keep in mind, a (for profit) corporation seeks only the interests of the stockholders, not those "employed" by the corporation. In assuming that business model, Pan Trinbago ceased being concerned with the membership (as does a union), and has since been forced to answer to those who own the company. In business, you CANNOT be both; in fact, under the (English) "Common Law" system, which, like the United States, Trinidad and Tobago adopts, the minute a "non-profit" engages in certain "for profit" practices, the government steps in and issues violations. The Trinidad and Tobago statutes define these practices, and it will serve us well to learn our "Constitution". As far as Pan Trinbago's "Constitution" goes, it specifically forbids the executive members from owning stocks and shares, that are derived from business deals done under the association. It states:

"The Association shall not have or issue shares or stock. No dividend shall be paid and no part of the property or income of the Association shall be distributed to the members or officers of the Association...The Association shall not make or grant loans to any of its employees, agents, Officers or other personnel." (Article 11, (6) and (7).

http://www.pantrinbago.co.tt/index.php?option=com_content&view=...

That is their "Constitution", and not my words, and as such, when Chief Diaz boasts that he is not giving up hi million-dollar "cash cow", he is admitting to being in violation of the "Constitution" of the very association he leads. When he was named a "shareholder" with Chief Bowei and FCL's Lambert, he was in violation. When Pan Trinbago issues shares in stock, generated by monies from "investments" like the "Greens", they are in violation of their own laws. In Trinidad and Tobago, it is now commonplace to find the lawmakers being the lawbreakers, so I guess the mindset is, "if you can't beat them...". 

I am not clear as to how that business model is better for the local panmen and panwomen of Trinidad and Tobago. In my opinion, it creates a much worse environment, for the leadership is more concerned with their "business interests", and have shown that they have no respect for their own laws or the company laws of Trinidad and Tobago. They get away with it, because NO ONE has risen up and legally challenged them. And before the resident comedians ask me, "Why don't you?", I would answer in advance by asking, "Why don't we?" As for the garbage that a "union of pan men will never occur in T&T"; we should ALL know by now that one DID occur, again in 1958. The BS that a union for the local panmen AND panwomen of "T&T", needs to be "outside", does not deserve a response. I will address the mindset that we cannot do for ourselves in our own country, which is not very complimentary. I have confident in the people of Trinidad and Tobago, and those who make up the steelbands. I have the confidence that just like they stood up against the marginalization of a post-Colonial society, and rose up out of the violence of the "steelband clashes" of the late-1940s and 1950, to unite and form a unified body, WE, THE PAN PEOPLE can do so again. They needed NO foreign intervention, NOR to be headquartered in ANY foreign country. They independently took TASPO to Britain, the National Steelband to the United States and Canada, and organised the first Panorama and Steelband Music Festivals, both of which are STILL running to this day! And, the changes made to those two events, have been PROVEN to hurt, not help. Similarly, the change Pan Trinbago made from "non-profit" to "for profit", has also been PROVEN to hurt the steelbands, not help them. The "capitalist" approach, has seen a decrease in the number of steelbands, and a decrease in the places they can play. They created the "big band"; sort of a monopoly, where the "big fish eat the little fish", and it is both naive and foolish to believe that this is good for "steelband culture". So, while may promote "corporate greed", I will continue to be bought into the pedagogical concept of Paulo Freire, where it is understood that that corporate model is the cause of the global poverty we see today. For this reason, I think like a "unionist", and I reject "cronyism". Wishing you all a blessed "Saturn Day".

Ghost.

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

Morning all. The following link is some old footage, so excuse the audio. (I know Claude Gonzales would definitely consider it "noise".) In relation to the topic, listen to what George "Sonny" Goddard's explanation of the role of the leader of a union, whether you think those things are important to the membership or not. NOTE: He says that his position as President, was "VOLUNTARY"! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUas8C8hDio

Ghost Who Knows The Truth IS The Truth, Regardless Of Who Tells It. (And regardless of how "likable" they are.) Logic and reason, have NOTHING to do with emotions. RAISE OUR INTELLECT!

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

Okay Glenroy, I am ready to answer your questions.  However, from my understanding, in your opinion, steelband and pan are not “industries”, and until you are convinced otherwise, I am not sure I will be able to convince you of the importance and necessity of a “union” for those in the (what I like to call) the “industry”. Anyway, here goes:

1. One way a union could benefit is in “collective bargaining”, where agreements are made as far as “working conditions” (wages, hours and overtime, safety at the workplace, etc.) In the ideal world, steelbands and steel orchestras will be the “Employer”, the pan worker (player, tuner, arranger, etc.) would be the “Employee”, and the union would (as Prim and Bellies suggested) represent the individual panman and panwoman.
2. A union would have also prevented incidents like what recently happened with the “Getting Panned” by Jacob Edgar fiasco. A union would have ensured that NO ONE videotapes or interviews any steelband or any of their members, without written approval and disclaimers protecting the steelbands’ reputation and international image. They will also ensure that no one runs away with footage that could be considered propriety. (Have you ever heard of Wolfgang Krause? What did he do?) A union would have been a proactive measure against those like Edgar, not the reactive measure of crying and complaining after the fact, that we are good for.
3. A union provides the numbers necessary to lobby the government. Individually and disconnected, we are powerless. As a unified body, we can petition those in power, for what we think we need to survive and succeed. An example of this would be the “steelbands on the streets during Carnival time”. If we were a unified body, they would have to consider our political influence. Eric Williams found that out, by playing games with the union we once had. In 1970, the steelbands would march in the streets of Port of Spain, in what would become the largest grassroots mobilization for the NJAC party.
4. Regardless of what we believe, pan is one of our resources. Pan and its products are bought and sold on the market. These resources and products need labour to drive them; without the pan player, pan is no more than a handcrafted piece of steel. So, money is transferred between hands, from the supplier to the consumer. If pan was free and steelband and pan events were free, then money would not be an issue. If manual input was not needed then labour would not be an issue. Because you have money passing, and bodies sweating, there must be a system in place to prevent exploitation. As a country we say “we have oil”, but who makes the money off “we oil”? You? Me? Or “Big Oil”? Who does the drilling, the “key personnel” or the “worker”? When Pan Trinbago pays hundreds of thousands of dollars to FCL (for the “Greens”), how much money are they making, to pay out such large commissions? Who and whose pockets does the “Greens” really benefit? Do you know of ANY union where their president declares himself as one of the shareholders in deals involving the very industry they represent? A union would ensure that the profits go to the membership, and not to a select few.
5. As I outlined in the “Blueprint”, a pan players union, should function as any other musicians and artists union. I suggested that the union would work with the private sector, in securing benefits such as group life insurance, group health and dental insurance, legal aid, financial planning and advice services, and other such benefits that could make a positive impact on people’s lives. The union should also have its own credit union that offers various banking services such as home loans, checking and savings accounts, money market funds and CDs, auto loans, and so on.
6. With a union, every member will have access to union contracts, when being hired by “employers”. If any legal matters arise out from a particular event, the union’s legal team steps in, on behalf of the member. The union member would not have to go hire his or her own attorney. This is one of the benefits I get as a member of the AFM. Further, if I do a gig, and the client refuses to pay me, the union will give me money to at least get home. So, say a union member did a gig in Jamaica, and the promoters refused to pay him or her, the union will pay for the member’s plane ticket and transportation cost to get back home to Trinidad and Tobago.
7. Because the union is made up of people like me (my “peers”), they have more of an emotional attachment to my needs, than do the “employers”. As such, the union representatives, acting on my behalf, would more than likely ensure that I am not exploited, and that I am treated with the respect as a “professional”. This is why, most “employers” prefer to hire people who are not unionized. They know that they can exploit you and get away with it.
8. Again, Pan Trinbago ended being a union when as you correctly pointed out that they became incorporated when they felt that they “would be more effective…”. So, we’ve established that according to them (NOT the “Ghost”), they ceased being a union. But they are playing a two-sided game. Their “Constitution” specifically forbids them from owning shares and engaging in certain business practices, however, the do the opposite. So, they claim to be a union, but do things that violate both their constitution and Trinidad and Tobago’s business laws. What you all are not getting is that when they say they “formerly” operated as a union, they are drawing on NATTS history, and NOT Pan Trinbago history. And again, their claim of world governance is also a farce, as I explained in previous posts. (And, even Othello Molineaux agrees with me on that. He was telling me of the Japanese Steelband Association and how they function.)
9. When it comes to taxes, there is no legal definition in business as “democratic organization”. It is either you are a taxable or a non-taxable/tax exempt corporation (NGO, e.g.), limited liability company, sole proprietor, or individual. Both for profits and non-profits have some system of a democratic process in the electing of officers. However, being a “democratic organization” is NOT synonymous “non-profit” NOR “union”. Unless we understand the legal definition, we will continue to be fooled by the world pseudo-governing body.
10. As with any group, if the ones voting the leaders in are not “smart enough”, they often get used, misused, and abused. The current UNC-led government is the perfect example of this; people not understanding politics and the roles of politicians. In Trinidad and Tobago we have “tribal politics”, and in the steelbands and pan, we have “celebrity politics”. I have tried my best to get this WST membership to think more critically; to not be as gullible or as uninformed. The reality is, for some unknown reason, those with formal education understand and appreciate my approach, and those lacking formal education warp everything I post. For example, when I said that my dad was the “Greatest Leader of the Steelband Movement”, my intellectually-challenged nemesis warped that to mean that I said my dad was the greatest leader of the steelbands, which is NOT what I said. My dad, NEVER led a steelband; he led the “Steelband Movement”, and I posted a bullet-pointed document, listing his accomplishments. The intellectual way to challenge that, is to name someone else, AND list their accomplishments. Then we can compare them to my dad’s. Again, I am willing to submit, when the evidence proves otherwise. Until then, my hypothesis stands!

Anyway, I hope I answered some of your questions. These, of course, are my opinions. I do not expect everyone to agree with any of them. What I do expect is that the disagreements be based on logic and reason, and not ego and emotions. I admit, this is the way I was trained to debate in college, and that is the way I present my arguments, backed up with reliable sources. But disagreeing with me, because you have something personal with me, is juvenile. Then, when I correct people’s statements, rather that keep the conversation on what was said, they choose to make it about who said it, and hope there are enough “Ghost-haters” to rally behind them. Of course, no one comes to their rescue, because we all know who the “relevant parties” are on WST. (Look at who they interview.)

Finally Glenroy, my dad was a FIERCE defender of the “little man”; the “Untouchables” of SIDD’s religious indoctrination. My dad was targeted because he stood for the poor, Black (African AND Indian) man of Trinidad and Tobago, ESPECIALLY (those who were once known as “steelbandsmen”). The “intellectuals” in UWI (T.O.P.S.) wanted “change”. Pan Trinbago is “change”, for NOTHING they do or stand for, represent my dad’s positions. They have turned a union upside down; one that took us out of steelband clashes, gave us Panorama and the Steelbands Music Festival, presented us to royalty, introduced us to “Mainstream America” and Canada, moved the Vatican to hear our pleas in the face of adversity from the local Roman Catholic church and her congregation, and brought visiting college students to tears on hearing what “panmen” had to endure,. I’ll be damned if they get away with the continuing murdering of the steelbands. I will not just sit back and watch them destroy what my dad built, and I will not let them continue with the lies and distortions about the history of the associations (the Steelbands Association, NATTS, and Pan Trinbago). I will continue to present not opinion, but (as always) FACTS; the EVIDENCE that is required by ALL, in order to be considered “credible”, regardless of whether you are college-educated or not. My dad wasn’t, but he understood the importance of providing “primary sources”. When I first mentioned his book on WST, the FIRST and ONLY response the “snake” had was, “your father’s book is his words…” Obviously, this serpent has never seen the book, much less read it, or he would know that EVERY written page provides the primary sources, where anyone can do the research and see they were not my dad’s words. Such is the disrespect I have been getting from Day One. Simply put, I have NO respect for anyone who does not respect me or those who look like me. Again, the racist garbage of my being cursed because I have “black skin”, offended me to my core, and until the day that excuse of a human being apologizes for those racist comments, PLEASE do not expect me to say ANY kind words to him, or about him. And, regardless of what you think of me Glenroy, I have NOTHING but the purest love, respect, appreciation, and admiration for you. I simply speak my mind, and I am honest in what I express. The ONLY thing that I have EVER been “guilty” of on WST, is defending our culture, without apology. And that, I will continue to do, whether on WST, or elsewhere. I am a “lone rider”, and need no posse to do what is right, or say what I believe is right.

Ghost.

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

Hopefully, he's gotten all out, so we can get back on topic of this discussion, and to proving our claims with evidence. He cannot debate me, so he has to attack my person. Then when he get disrespected, he starts crying foul and calling for "Cyber Police". All this, because I called him a "totee-headed monster" some years ago. (Claiming to be "godlike", but cannot forgive. Typical of those who claim to represent "God", I guess. smh.)

BTW- ANYONE who knows my dad, would know that he would have considered SIDD as much of an agent, as he considered Pan Trinbago as the "worst thing that could happen to pan". My dad was NOT materialistic, would have fiercely opposed the use of electronic instruments in any steelband and/or pan event, and would have DEFINITELY called SIDD a "complete ass" (and worse).

Ghost Who KNOW Daddy Up In Heaven, Saying: Cuss him! Cuss him! ☺ (Keep throwing corn...)

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

Glenroy, I'm almost ready for your answers. In the meantime, I wanted to put out a question: When the steelbands' association got it's first "constitution", what name were they under, and who was the attorney who drafted that document?

Ghost Who Is About To Separate The Sheep From The Wolves!

[Pan'tum - The Ghost Who Talks]

FYI- I admit I have two problems:

1. I hate racist pigs, especially "half-breed" racist pigs!
2. I love to knockout bullies.

Ghost.☺

BTW - I am not trying to establish the "credibility of my character". I am establishing the credibility of my words, backed up with facts. The jihn, on the other hand, attempts to discredit my character, my spewing lies. Lying is all this forked-tongue "wolf in sheep clothing" can do. Those who know me, know me. Those who do not, are free to form their own opinions, which again does not bother me. Unlike this panacite, I do not need to latch on to any hosts.