The recent statements by President Barack Obama, supporting “gay marriage”, have certainly stuck a nerve with many, who see homosexuality, as the “sin of all sins”, especially those “guided” by “religious” doctrine. Some have even seen this as an endorsement of homosexuality, and, a recent US magazine, has labeled the president as “the first gay President”, placing a rainbow halo over his head.
This debate over gay’s rights (including the rights to matrimony), is now being discussed by the law-makers of our twin-island republic. Indeed, Trinidadians and Tobagonians, are a very “religious” people (whatever that means), and I am sure that most of our society, would be in fierce opposition to gay marriage. The reality is that, like the US armed forces traditional policy, the “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach, seems to be the best option for local gays and lesbians. Of course, that applies whether you’re a priest, coach, or, like Merchant, a calypsonian. What about a panman or panwoman? What if the “Gay” in Witco Gay Desperadoes meant homosexual?
Needless to say, these emotional, heated discussions got me to wondering: just how many homosexuals do we have in the pan fraternity? It would be extremely foolish to assume that we are an amalgamated, heterosexual group, when, the fact is, the pan fraternity, like other “sample” groups, is a reflection of society, in terms of attitudes, beliefs, and behavior. That being true, one can safely assume that the vast majority of those in the local pan fraternity are “Christian”. (Some view a “Christian” as a “believer in Christ”; I view them as “followers”. In other words, the answers to “What would Jesus do?”, directs their actions.) In any event, I am sure that the vast majority are vehemently against gay marriage, based purely on “religious” grounds (especially Judaic, Christian and Islamic), citing the Hebrew Scriptures account of Sodom and Gomorrah. The hypocrisy is that, they all fail to also cite that homosexual activity, according to the Bible account, was not the only immoral behavior that allegedly drove “God” to destroy these two cities, and that, heterosexuals, including Lot’s wife, were also victims of the fire, brimstone, and salt of “God’s wrought”. Arguably, curiosity (i.e. looking back) received the same death sentence as homosexuality, and, I would further assume that to “God”, a sin is a sin.
Agreeably, I have my own biases, based on my upbringing, and, although I view homosexuality as “unnatural”, I also believe that I do not have the right to impose my beliefs, “religious” or otherwise, on any member of our society, including homosexuals. I also recognize the hypocrisy among those, who, on one hand, claim marriage as a sacredly ordained union between a man and a woman, and on the other, accept Abraham, David, and other Bible figures’ fornication, adultery, and polygamy. Some go as far as believing that Ham (the alleged ancestor of “Blacks”), buggered his drunken father, and that his “seed” (i.e. me) would be forever accursed. (Quite a vivid imagination to come up with that one, in my opinion.) These same people who see same sex marriage an abomination, would have no problem, though, with a man and woman getting married for reasons other than those “God” ordained, for example, getting a “green card”.
Now, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ basically broke down the Ten Commandments into two: Love God above everything else, and, love your neighbor as yourself. I would assume that there were homosexuals in Jesus’ day, however, the ONLY activity that drove him to anger was not homosexuality, but gambling. He got irate enough to turn over the gambling tables. In fact, rather than judge, ostracize, and condemn prostitutes and thieves, he looked into their hearts. When they were about to execute the whore, he challenged that “he who is without sin, cast the first stone”. The rest is “Bible history”.
Most of us are also familiar with the “Adam and Steve in the Garden” joke, yet, many will not acknowledge that a “loving God” would not have waited for man (his favorite creation) to show signs of loneliness, before putting him in a deep sleep and taking one rib in creating a mate – woman. And this is after creating female companionship for his lesser creations. That does not make sense, and is wrapped up in Hebrew patriarchy. Hopefully, more and more people will come to realize that Genesis is nothing more than allegory, and that many of the events as recorded in the Torah (Septuagint, of first five chapters of the Bible), including the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, are based on “Jewish” fable. (Do the research.)
I think that it is absolutely critical, that “Church and State” be kept separate entities. Keep your religion to yourselves; we are a society made up of more than just “creed and race”. EVERYONE should find an equal place in a society that is not ruled by religion. I certainly hope that we in the pan fraternity are both fair and respectful enough to honor the “God” we believe in, by accepting that he gave us ALL, the freedom and right to choose. Granted, regardless of the path we choose in life, we are ALL accountable for our actions. But the judge, jury, and executioner, should not come from those unable to separate their own biases (religious or otherwise), and indeed we need to “leave all judgment unto God”. The drive to make Trinidad & Tobago a “religious state” is dangerous for everyone, for it defragments the very principles upon which “democracy” is built. Until we are able to divorce (excuse the pun) ourselves from the archaic and barbaric “eye for an eye, tooth for tooth…” Judaic system, we will always be playing “God”, when in all actuality, we are the “Scribes and Pharisees” that Jesus allegedly told to “Get away from me. Hypocrites and parasites.”
To those of my peers who happen to be gay and lesbian, I say, continue to fight for your freedom; your God-given right to choose to live your life the way you see fit. Under the laws of democracy, you have EVERY right that your heterosexual colleagues are entitled to, including the right to choose your spouse. That is my opinion. I would be hypocritical to claim to be a “freedom-fighter”, if I did not seek the liberation of ALL in our society. You have the right to be judged (by “God”, whoever that is), just as much as I have the right. And, marriage is a civil rights issue, not a religious issue. A marriage is a legally binding contract, guided by the laws of Trinidad & Tobago, and those laws are supposed to be free from religion. Likewise, the atheist has the same rights as the believer, and, should not be forced into accepting a belief system, simply because of majority consensus. I think that Huey Newton, was on point when he addressed the “gay rights” issue beck in 1970. I share the printout of that speech, in the hope that we, in the pan fraternity, reject bigotry, on any level, regardless of our “religious” beliefs.
http://hiphopandpolitics.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/looking-back-at-huey-newtons-thoughts-on-gay-rights-in-the-wake-of-obamas-endorsement/
(QUESTION: How do you feel about working with a homosexual pan player?)
Yours In Pan,
George D. Goddard, B. A.
Pan’tum – The Ghost Who Talks. Honoring The Legacy Of George “Sonny” Goddard
Views: 2821
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I did not see anything mention about homosexuals bring up children. [Papa and Dada] [Mama and Mommy] we are supposed to silent and watch people who are not NORMAL therefore ABNORMAL [we arrive at this because of percentage of homosexuals against the population of straight people] confuse innocent children.
While I already made it clear as to where I stand on the "moral" issue, due to my own "religious" views, from a "human rights" standpoint, should a lesbian mother be forced to give up her children, or a gay father lose his parental rights, simply for being a homosexual? Also, are ALL heterosexuals "normal", or involve themselves in "normal" sexual behavior, whatever that is? Who are raising the children being abused, raped, tortured, and killed in Trinidad & Tobago on a day-to-day basis, and causing concern among the leaders and law enforcement community? Who raised the young, Black men who have become the stereotypical profile of "the criminal"? What does the empirical evidence (research studies) show on this issue, of the psychological effects of being raised by gay parents?
FYI - Homosexuals have ALWAYS been bringing up children; they just remained "in the closet", and outside of the home, they go by "Uncle", "Father" (in the RC Church), "Coach", Boy Scout Leader", etc. IMHO, what really confuses children, more than anything else, is a society of race and class discrimination, economic and social marginalization, and a "culture" of double-standards. So, if a homosexual raises kids, they will grow up to be "ABNORMAL"? Aren't murder, rape, alcoholism, drug use (including prescription drugs), excessive gambling, sex addiction, and compulsive disorders (eating, hoarding, etc.) also "ABNORMAL" behavior? To me, a sexually abusive heterosexual father who molests his teenage daughter, is more or a detriment to ANY child, than ANY loving parent (gay or straight) who protects and nurtures that child. I am beginning to see a picture of the ideal "panman" and "panwoman" - Straight, Christian, capitalist, and "normal" (as defined by the majority). And that is why they need to fight for their equal rights in a society that is supposed to be "free" from "religious doctrine", where "every creed and race find an equal place". The reality is, we are a country made up of more than just "creed" and "race", and it is time we end discrimination on all levels. I'll end with the words of an African-Jamaican Empress, Queen Ifrica, who, in reference to what confuses innocent children, sang: Daddy don't touch me there. I'm gonna tell on you one day, I swear. Can't you see I'm scared; you're supposed to be my father. " Remember, at one time it was "ABNORMAL", to have children out of wedlock (bastards), or to have children with "Black blood" (mulatto or mule). It was also "ABNORMAL" for slaves to try to escape off the plantation - a condition known as DRAPETOMANIA. Even in the field of psychology, what is classified as "NORMAL" and "ABNORMAL", is heavily favored toward a Eurocentric/White worldview, where African expressions (as seen in the syncopation of art, song, dance, ritual and worship), were, and still are, classified as the latter.
No disrespect. Shem Em Hotep.
GHOST - Who, though I believe in "God", and am a heterosexual, defends the rights of the atheist and the homosexual, understanding that NONE of us are "free", until we are ALL free!!! More Power.
Cecil hinkson > Pan'tum - The Ghost Who TalksJune 4, 2012 at 10:52am
It's is only because of the powerful loby that the gay community has [professional people ect] that society is forced to accept homosexuality as nornal behaviour. Two people of the same sex are just not supposed to mix it up, it is not normal, how we are to treat them as a society is a different story.
Look at what "forced to accept" heterosexuality really looks like:
HINDU WOMEN DISCUSS EARLY MARRIAGES - Trinidad & Tobago Newsday. June 4,2012.
"The discussion will address the issues of early and forced marriage which according to The Royal Commission Society Briefing Paper on Empowering Girls, “constitutes a violation of the most basic fundamental rights”, a release from HWO said. The public is invited to the discussion."
QUESTION: Does being forced into early marriage, with someone they did not fall in love with,"confuse" little girls? Do you consider this "NORMAL" or "ABNORMAL" behavior? Isn't it true, that it is (in fact) "NORMAL" among "T&T Indians", especially those of the Hindu faith?
GHOST - Who Talks Honestly and Fairly. And, these are NOT girls who are "T&T Africans", disproving claims of my "Black Nationalist" agenda. I stand up and speak out for ALL, not just CREED and RACE, but also SEX, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, AGE, CLASS, HANDICAP. ETC... You get it.
Okay, Cecil, then by your argument "the physical act" is what makes one gay or straight. Then, let me ask you, can someone be either homosexual or heterosexual if they are 100% "virgin", and choose to wait until "wedlock" (or other civil union) before they "mix it up". Your statement, in my opinion, could be considered homophobic, for ALL comes to your mind, when it comes to gay issues, is act itself (in the case of males, the act of buggery). Now, if we look at "freedom" for ANY oppressed group, "normal" or not, we will se that, throughout human history, the oppressor was "forced to accept" the oppressed will to be free. So, whether it were the school children of Soweto, Rosa Parks on the bus, or the people involved in the recent uprisings in Egypt and other countries, they ALL understand that unless you "force" the oppressor to "accept" you, you will NEVER be accepted. Keep in mind, they are not asking to join your churches; those who are in the church, can uphold the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, from Father to parishioner), and "marriage" on a societal level, is a legally binding, civil union. Why should "religion" dictate a "free society"? Freedom should include freedom from religious influence. PERIOD. That's my truth.
GHOST.
Cecil hinkson > Pan'tum - The Ghost Who TalksJune 4, 2012 at 11:51am
George I never mention anything about religion I am just playing the numbers game and it tells us that that the majority of people on this planet are straight, if you are crocked in a straight world you are not normal.
Permit me to put a different spin on this topic, back in the day in T&T when we used to say Bullerman there was not many homosexuals, I knew 3 Tom, Clovis and ah judge [cyah call he name ah fraid he sue meh] now they are GAY homosexuals comming out the woodwork. We all know that some people are born so but what we are seeing now is a life-style people are choosing and these ars the ones that in most vocal.
With respect Mr Cecil hinkson, i do believe that ,,,that choice would have to be made by those whom are in that catogory,they would know best,,i would say one thing and that is, thank God that i was born without any deformities,,thus we as humans whom were born without any defect should also give thanks and praises and not condemn otheres,,Respect the unfortunate, regardless, for God has made man in his own image,,Homo..lesbian,,criple,lame,without a hand,one foot,born paralysed,,born blind or whatever,,with respect i do make my comment,God Bless.
Well here are my two cents, ..... at the end (maybe I should have kept it in my pockets…LOL).
I have read and listened to the ‘for’ and ‘against’ sides of the topic
Everyone has their religious beliefs and practically all religious beliefs falls on the against side ..my religious beliefs are no different. It definitely falls on the ‘against side’.
But man is not only a religious being, he is also amongst other things a social being, a being with political inclinations as well as a being that uses logic. In keeping honest it is already stated that my religious beliefs is on the ‘against side’. However I am not an extremist. As far as Barack Obama goes clearly this seemed to be a political move and one might add he was possibly pulled into it by his Vice President.
From a logical point of view Man is undoubtedly the most intellectual and advanced animal in creation and evolution. He does not react on instincts only, like most of the ‘intellectually lower’ animals. Man uses his other faculties of reason, informative knowledge acquired, habit, adaptation and choice.
From a biological stand point if we start with the simplest known animal a one celled animal ‘the Amoeba’ . it reproduces by asexual reproduction (the cell simply grows and splits into two) and then there are now two of the amoeba.
The Hydra a simple but more than one cell animal also reproduces asexually by simply growing a bud which eventually breaks out from the parent and becomes an individual and grows …however it also reproduces sexually under different conditions a male hydra combines with a female hydra to reproduce.
As we move up the ladder of more sophisticated animals we logically realize that sexual activities are for the primary purpose of reproduction of that specie, however the sexual activities vary accordingly from animal to animal (including insects and fishes)
(a) The Queen bee has to be fertilized my many drones
(b) The female dog (bitch) usually has several male dogs for sexual reproduction
(c) The chickens are the reverse the Cock ( rooster) has several hens for reproduction
(d) The lion has several lionesses
All of the other animal species in their sexual activities practice either monogamous male & female sexual activities, or polygamous sexual activities be it one male and several females or one female and several males.
All of these other animals are arguably lower than the human species and they follow this law or instinct. You could by definition assume that it is a ‘Natural’ instinctive law.
It would be for these other ‘lower classed’ animals an “unnatural” instinct or law for a male specie to cohabit with a male specie, or for a female specie to cohabit with a female specie. Keeping it honest the ‘lower animals’ do not practice this type of sexual activity.
However Man (meaning man & woman) who is of course arguably more intelligent, from the beginning of time has engaged in all of these activities, primarily because Man uses sexual activities not only for reproduction as the other animals but for self gratification and relationships.
There is a lot of hypocrisy and contradictions when it comes to Man.
It is readily accepted (primarily by today’s Western civilization) that the most natural relationship is of (one man and one woman partnership). This is based on first a religious point of view. But, this is again in total contradiction to their same beliefs if they follow the present Biblical texts be it Jew or Christian.
According to the Bible, Adam had one wife, Eve. But other prophets (regarded as the most righteous of men) had more than one wife (Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon ..to name a few). Moses the law giver also stated in a text” If a man hath two wives one beloved and one hated….” the point is that it was also the law. Like wise as some one else quoted from the Bible in Leviticus that it was an abomination for a Man to lie with another Man, this was also the Law. Of course everyone also knows about the story of Sodom & Gomorrah of which the word Sodomy is derived.
From the same Bible there was a quote from Jesus which stated in part “I come not to change the Law but to fulfill…..not one jot shall be removed”.. If that be the case in Jesus’s own words he did not change the laws of Moses. Therefore he did not condemn (1) Polygamy (2) He did not OK Homosexually.
However the contradiction today is that neither the Jew nor Christian practice polygamy which was a law given by Moses in the Old Testament and upheld by Jesus in the New Testament. Also the Jew and Christian of today (not everyone) go against Moses & Jesus by making Homosexuality OK.
In Keeping it honest, the West with its Hypocrisy (up until now) promoted one man one woman relationship but made room for prostitution or mistresses or as they used to say in ol’ T&T a ‘deputy essential’.
In other cultures ,Africa and Eastern cultures they still practice Polygamy ( one man and more than one female).
Today with human rights and minority rights big on the table there is a dilemma in the West to uphold everyone’s rights. One of the problems that I have is when they lump everything in the same basket for instance when they put race discrimination in the same basket as homosexual discrimination. Keeping it honest I am black .. I did not have a choice… I did not choose my race. I am not homosexual ..it was by choice ..I choose not to be homosexual.
Still keeping it honest A lot of men have a problem with man on man but have no problem with woman on woman…….
I think my two cents went in to ten cents…anyways in closing. I may not agree with Homosexual behavior because of my religious upbringing and because of my logical, social and intellectual upbringing as regards my own acquired information of sexual behavior of animals. Man is an individual and makes the choices he has to live by. If he chooses to drink alcohol, or smoke drugs etc or if he chooses not to do these things, it is all his choice. Likewise if man chooses to follow a path of criminal behavior, he makes a choice. It should also be my choice if I choose not to associate with people who do these activities.
For the record I don’t have a big problem lining up in the same band to play Pan in a Panorama with people who smoke drink or are homosexuals. It probably has been happening. However I may not want to line up with a known criminal for obvious reasons. Everything is choice.. sometimes however we choose the wrong things.
Salah, this is worth more than its weight in gold. Very good anti-gay argument. I was not really trying to get to the moral argument as much as the human rights argument. I also voiced that I see homosexuality as "unnatural", however, I defend their rights to be equals in society, in the pan fraternity, and on this WST forum. Further, they should not have to hide who they are, and I disagree with you that ALL homosexuals choose to be such. Of course, there will be some who "choose" a gay lifestyle, but, until we understand that homosexuality among humans (and it does happen in the animal kingdom, as well), in many cases comes from the psychological, and not the physical aspect that make us who we are. What do we say about a person with Black skin, who becomes obsessed with bleaching to become "White"? I believe our IDENTITY ("Who Am I?", as to self-image and perception), is molded by both nurture (i.e. innate in us, including "sexual orientation"), and nature (our "environment", on both the micro and macro levels - womb, home and family, neighborhood and friends, church, school, television and other audiovisual media, and the influences of the dominant "cultures" and "sub-cultures"). As far as "criminal" activity, my "Blueprint" addresses that choice, and where I stand on the issue, but again, there is a race/class-based bias, when it comes to the handling of the drugs/crime, gang activity, and other deviant behaviors exhibited by today's youth.
GHOST - Who Disagrees Respectfully, Unlike What Others May Say! Like Water, I Reflect Your Energy!!!
Salah Wilson > Pan'tum - The Ghost Who TalksJune 3, 2012 at 9:40pm
Yes brother Ghost, I do acknowledge that there are always some exceptions to the rule or to the norm.... so that in ALL homosexuals there are some differences. We know that the environment you may live in might contribute to homosexuality...Many young boys who were molested repeatedley by adults who were in their care may have a strong tendency towards becoming homosexuals ..yet it still is a choice ( though it might be difficult ) because all who were molested does not all become Homosexuals even though they may feel scarred for life.We know this to be true but many do turn to be homosexuals also.
The human being is also one that follows different trends ..so if he is bombarded with "Gay Commercials' and "Gay Education" of the "benefits of being Gay". there is a great tendency that a lot of people might take up the trends of being Gay....freedom to advertize and freedom to choose.
What I would hope is that if the opposite also happens in terms of other people also advertizing the "benefits of NOT being Gay" that this group is not now labelled as "Homophobic. It has to be the same rules for both sides of the discussion ..freedom to advertize and freedom to choose.
On another part of the discussion that I did not mention in my "Two cents contribution".
I do know that some people are born (differently ) not by choice. For instance one could mention someone born with Dow syndrome .... this is not by choice... this is normal in its abnormality ..... like wise some males are born with more female tendency hormones...this also is normal in its abnormality. Hence in some case it is in fact not by choice ..I do acknowledge this but in a scale it would register as a minimal minority in comparison with the entire human race.
In the WIKIPEDIA it states
"In men, testosterone plays a key role in the development of male reproductive tissues such as the testis and prostate as well as promoting secondary sexual characteristics such as increased muscle, bone mass, and the growth of body hair.[3] In addition, testosterone is essential for health and well-being[4] as well as the prevention of osteoporosis.[5]
On average, an adult human male body produces about 7-8 times more testosterone than an adult human female body,[6] but females are more sensitive to the hormone...."
If there is an imbalance in the amount of "natural" production of this hormone in both male & female it will naturally have a different effect on the Male or Female. in the lay man's term ( a man might be acting more womanish or a woman ,may be acting more manish) ..but it is normal in its abnormality.....but it is also undeniable that a lot of people choose this "Gay" lifestyle.
Brother Ghost ..I stand corrected also that if it does happen in the animal kingdom ( male on male ...& female on female ) that this is also a minimal minority ..definitely not the norm for the billions of species in the animal kingdom. The "lower class " animals do not have the ability nor need for the choices that the human species have and competes with including the choices of bleaching of the black skin to become white etc..I do agree with your explanation on that.
Replies
I did not see anything mention about homosexuals bring up children. [Papa and Dada] [Mama and Mommy] we are supposed to silent and watch people who are not NORMAL therefore ABNORMAL [we arrive at this because of percentage of homosexuals against the population of straight people] confuse innocent children.
While I already made it clear as to where I stand on the "moral" issue, due to my own "religious" views, from a "human rights" standpoint, should a lesbian mother be forced to give up her children, or a gay father lose his parental rights, simply for being a homosexual? Also, are ALL heterosexuals "normal", or involve themselves in "normal" sexual behavior, whatever that is? Who are raising the children being abused, raped, tortured, and killed in Trinidad & Tobago on a day-to-day basis, and causing concern among the leaders and law enforcement community? Who raised the young, Black men who have become the stereotypical profile of "the criminal"? What does the empirical evidence (research studies) show on this issue, of the psychological effects of being raised by gay parents?
FYI - Homosexuals have ALWAYS been bringing up children; they just remained "in the closet", and outside of the home, they go by "Uncle", "Father" (in the RC Church), "Coach", Boy Scout Leader", etc. IMHO, what really confuses children, more than anything else, is a society of race and class discrimination, economic and social marginalization, and a "culture" of double-standards. So, if a homosexual raises kids, they will grow up to be "ABNORMAL"? Aren't murder, rape, alcoholism, drug use (including prescription drugs), excessive gambling, sex addiction, and compulsive disorders (eating, hoarding, etc.) also "ABNORMAL" behavior? To me, a sexually abusive heterosexual father who molests his teenage daughter, is more or a detriment to ANY child, than ANY loving parent (gay or straight) who protects and nurtures that child. I am beginning to see a picture of the ideal "panman" and "panwoman" - Straight, Christian, capitalist, and "normal" (as defined by the majority). And that is why they need to fight for their equal rights in a society that is supposed to be "free" from "religious doctrine", where "every creed and race find an equal place". The reality is, we are a country made up of more than just "creed" and "race", and it is time we end discrimination on all levels. I'll end with the words of an African-Jamaican Empress, Queen Ifrica, who, in reference to what confuses innocent children, sang: Daddy don't touch me there. I'm gonna tell on you one day, I swear. Can't you see I'm scared; you're supposed to be my father. " Remember, at one time it was "ABNORMAL", to have children out of wedlock (bastards), or to have children with "Black blood" (mulatto or mule). It was also "ABNORMAL" for slaves to try to escape off the plantation - a condition known as DRAPETOMANIA. Even in the field of psychology, what is classified as "NORMAL" and "ABNORMAL", is heavily favored toward a Eurocentric/White worldview, where African expressions (as seen in the syncopation of art, song, dance, ritual and worship), were, and still are, classified as the latter.
No disrespect. Shem Em Hotep.
GHOST - Who, though I believe in "God", and am a heterosexual, defends the rights of the atheist and the homosexual, understanding that NONE of us are "free", until we are ALL free!!! More Power.
It's is only because of the powerful loby that the gay community has [professional people ect] that society is forced to accept homosexuality as nornal behaviour. Two people of the same sex are just not supposed to mix it up, it is not normal, how we are to treat them as a society is a different story.
Look at what "forced to accept" heterosexuality really looks like:
HINDU WOMEN DISCUSS EARLY MARRIAGES - Trinidad & Tobago Newsday. June 4,2012.
"The discussion will address the issues of early and forced marriage which according to The Royal Commission Society Briefing Paper on Empowering Girls, “constitutes a violation of the most basic fundamental rights”, a release from HWO said. The public is invited to the discussion."
http://www.newsday.co.tt/news/0,161206.html
QUESTION: Does being forced into early marriage, with someone they did not fall in love with,"confuse" little girls? Do you consider this "NORMAL" or "ABNORMAL" behavior? Isn't it true, that it is (in fact) "NORMAL" among "T&T Indians", especially those of the Hindu faith?
GHOST - Who Talks Honestly and Fairly. And, these are NOT girls who are "T&T Africans", disproving claims of my "Black Nationalist" agenda. I stand up and speak out for ALL, not just CREED and RACE, but also SEX, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, AGE, CLASS, HANDICAP. ETC... You get it.
Okay, Cecil, then by your argument "the physical act" is what makes one gay or straight. Then, let me ask you, can someone be either homosexual or heterosexual if they are 100% "virgin", and choose to wait until "wedlock" (or other civil union) before they "mix it up". Your statement, in my opinion, could be considered homophobic, for ALL comes to your mind, when it comes to gay issues, is act itself (in the case of males, the act of buggery). Now, if we look at "freedom" for ANY oppressed group, "normal" or not, we will se that, throughout human history, the oppressor was "forced to accept" the oppressed will to be free. So, whether it were the school children of Soweto, Rosa Parks on the bus, or the people involved in the recent uprisings in Egypt and other countries, they ALL understand that unless you "force" the oppressor to "accept" you, you will NEVER be accepted. Keep in mind, they are not asking to join your churches; those who are in the church, can uphold the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, from Father to parishioner), and "marriage" on a societal level, is a legally binding, civil union. Why should "religion" dictate a "free society"? Freedom should include freedom from religious influence. PERIOD. That's my truth.
GHOST.
George I never mention anything about religion I am just playing the numbers game and it tells us that that the majority of people on this planet are straight, if you are crocked in a straight world you are not normal.
Permit me to put a different spin on this topic, back in the day in T&T when we used to say Bullerman there was not many homosexuals, I knew 3 Tom, Clovis and ah judge [cyah call he name ah fraid he sue meh] now they are GAY homosexuals comming out the woodwork. We all know that some people are born so but what we are seeing now is a life-style people are choosing and these ars the ones that in most vocal.
With respect Mr Cecil hinkson, i do believe that ,,,that choice would have to be made by those whom are in that catogory,they would know best,,i would say one thing and that is, thank God that i was born without any deformities,,thus we as humans whom were born without any defect should also give thanks and praises and not condemn otheres,,Respect the unfortunate, regardless, for God has made man in his own image,,Homo..lesbian,,criple,lame,without a hand,one foot,born paralysed,,born blind or whatever,,with respect i do make my comment,God Bless.
Well here are my two cents, ..... at the end (maybe I should have kept it in my pockets…LOL).
I have read and listened to the ‘for’ and ‘against’ sides of the topic
Everyone has their religious beliefs and practically all religious beliefs falls on the against side ..my religious beliefs are no different. It definitely falls on the ‘against side’.
But man is not only a religious being, he is also amongst other things a social being, a being with political inclinations as well as a being that uses logic. In keeping honest it is already stated that my religious beliefs is on the ‘against side’. However I am not an extremist. As far as Barack Obama goes clearly this seemed to be a political move and one might add he was possibly pulled into it by his Vice President.
From a logical point of view Man is undoubtedly the most intellectual and advanced animal in creation and evolution. He does not react on instincts only, like most of the ‘intellectually lower’ animals. Man uses his other faculties of reason, informative knowledge acquired, habit, adaptation and choice.
From a biological stand point if we start with the simplest known animal a one celled animal ‘the Amoeba’ . it reproduces by asexual reproduction (the cell simply grows and splits into two) and then there are now two of the amoeba.
The Hydra a simple but more than one cell animal also reproduces asexually by simply growing a bud which eventually breaks out from the parent and becomes an individual and grows …however it also reproduces sexually under different conditions a male hydra combines with a female hydra to reproduce.
As we move up the ladder of more sophisticated animals we logically realize that sexual activities are for the primary purpose of reproduction of that specie, however the sexual activities vary accordingly from animal to animal (including insects and fishes)
(a) The Queen bee has to be fertilized my many drones
(b) The female dog (bitch) usually has several male dogs for sexual reproduction
(c) The chickens are the reverse the Cock ( rooster) has several hens for reproduction
(d) The lion has several lionesses
All of the other animal species in their sexual activities practice either monogamous male & female sexual activities, or polygamous sexual activities be it one male and several females or one female and several males.
All of these other animals are arguably lower than the human species and they follow this law or instinct. You could by definition assume that it is a ‘Natural’ instinctive law.
It would be for these other ‘lower classed’ animals an “unnatural” instinct or law for a male specie to cohabit with a male specie, or for a female specie to cohabit with a female specie. Keeping it honest the ‘lower animals’ do not practice this type of sexual activity.
However Man (meaning man & woman) who is of course arguably more intelligent, from the beginning of time has engaged in all of these activities, primarily because Man uses sexual activities not only for reproduction as the other animals but for self gratification and relationships.
There is a lot of hypocrisy and contradictions when it comes to Man.
It is readily accepted (primarily by today’s Western civilization) that the most natural relationship is of (one man and one woman partnership). This is based on first a religious point of view. But, this is again in total contradiction to their same beliefs if they follow the present Biblical texts be it Jew or Christian.
According to the Bible, Adam had one wife, Eve. But other prophets (regarded as the most righteous of men) had more than one wife (Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon ..to name a few). Moses the law giver also stated in a text” If a man hath two wives one beloved and one hated….” the point is that it was also the law. Like wise as some one else quoted from the Bible in Leviticus that it was an abomination for a Man to lie with another Man, this was also the Law. Of course everyone also knows about the story of Sodom & Gomorrah of which the word Sodomy is derived.
From the same Bible there was a quote from Jesus which stated in part “I come not to change the Law but to fulfill…..not one jot shall be removed”.. If that be the case in Jesus’s own words he did not change the laws of Moses. Therefore he did not condemn (1) Polygamy (2) He did not OK Homosexually.
However the contradiction today is that neither the Jew nor Christian practice polygamy which was a law given by Moses in the Old Testament and upheld by Jesus in the New Testament. Also the Jew and Christian of today (not everyone) go against Moses & Jesus by making Homosexuality OK.
In Keeping it honest, the West with its Hypocrisy (up until now) promoted one man one woman relationship but made room for prostitution or mistresses or as they used to say in ol’ T&T a ‘deputy essential’.
In other cultures ,Africa and Eastern cultures they still practice Polygamy ( one man and more than one female).
Today with human rights and minority rights big on the table there is a dilemma in the West to uphold everyone’s rights. One of the problems that I have is when they lump everything in the same basket for instance when they put race discrimination in the same basket as homosexual discrimination. Keeping it honest I am black .. I did not have a choice… I did not choose my race. I am not homosexual ..it was by choice ..I choose not to be homosexual.
Still keeping it honest A lot of men have a problem with man on man but have no problem with woman on woman…….
I think my two cents went in to ten cents…anyways in closing. I may not agree with Homosexual behavior because of my religious upbringing and because of my logical, social and intellectual upbringing as regards my own acquired information of sexual behavior of animals. Man is an individual and makes the choices he has to live by. If he chooses to drink alcohol, or smoke drugs etc or if he chooses not to do these things, it is all his choice. Likewise if man chooses to follow a path of criminal behavior, he makes a choice. It should also be my choice if I choose not to associate with people who do these activities.
For the record I don’t have a big problem lining up in the same band to play Pan in a Panorama with people who smoke drink or are homosexuals. It probably has been happening. However I may not want to line up with a known criminal for obvious reasons. Everything is choice.. sometimes however we choose the wrong things.
That’s my two cents.
Salah
Salah, this is worth more than its weight in gold. Very good anti-gay argument. I was not really trying to get to the moral argument as much as the human rights argument. I also voiced that I see homosexuality as "unnatural", however, I defend their rights to be equals in society, in the pan fraternity, and on this WST forum. Further, they should not have to hide who they are, and I disagree with you that ALL homosexuals choose to be such. Of course, there will be some who "choose" a gay lifestyle, but, until we understand that homosexuality among humans (and it does happen in the animal kingdom, as well), in many cases comes from the psychological, and not the physical aspect that make us who we are. What do we say about a person with Black skin, who becomes obsessed with bleaching to become "White"? I believe our IDENTITY ("Who Am I?", as to self-image and perception), is molded by both nurture (i.e. innate in us, including "sexual orientation"), and nature (our "environment", on both the micro and macro levels - womb, home and family, neighborhood and friends, church, school, television and other audiovisual media, and the influences of the dominant "cultures" and "sub-cultures"). As far as "criminal" activity, my "Blueprint" addresses that choice, and where I stand on the issue, but again, there is a race/class-based bias, when it comes to the handling of the drugs/crime, gang activity, and other deviant behaviors exhibited by today's youth.
GHOST - Who Disagrees Respectfully, Unlike What Others May Say! Like Water, I Reflect Your Energy!!!
Yes brother Ghost, I do acknowledge that there are always some exceptions to the rule or to the norm.... so that in ALL homosexuals there are some differences. We know that the environment you may live in might contribute to homosexuality...Many young boys who were molested repeatedley by adults who were in their care may have a strong tendency towards becoming homosexuals ..yet it still is a choice ( though it might be difficult ) because all who were molested does not all become Homosexuals even though they may feel scarred for life.We know this to be true but many do turn to be homosexuals also.
The human being is also one that follows different trends ..so if he is bombarded with "Gay Commercials' and "Gay Education" of the "benefits of being Gay". there is a great tendency that a lot of people might take up the trends of being Gay....freedom to advertize and freedom to choose.
What I would hope is that if the opposite also happens in terms of other people also advertizing the "benefits of NOT being Gay" that this group is not now labelled as "Homophobic. It has to be the same rules for both sides of the discussion ..freedom to advertize and freedom to choose.
On another part of the discussion that I did not mention in my "Two cents contribution".
I do know that some people are born (differently ) not by choice. For instance one could mention someone born with Dow syndrome .... this is not by choice... this is normal in its abnormality ..... like wise some males are born with more female tendency hormones...this also is normal in its abnormality. Hence in some case it is in fact not by choice ..I do acknowledge this but in a scale it would register as a minimal minority in comparison with the entire human race.
In the WIKIPEDIA it states
"In men, testosterone plays a key role in the development of male reproductive tissues such as the testis and prostate as well as promoting secondary sexual characteristics such as increased muscle, bone mass, and the growth of body hair.[3] In addition, testosterone is essential for health and well-being[4] as well as the prevention of osteoporosis.[5]
On average, an adult human male body produces about 7-8 times more testosterone than an adult human female body,[6] but females are more sensitive to the hormone...."
If there is an imbalance in the amount of "natural" production of this hormone in both male & female it will naturally have a different effect on the Male or Female. in the lay man's term ( a man might be acting more womanish or a woman ,may be acting more manish) ..but it is normal in its abnormality.....but it is also undeniable that a lot of people choose this "Gay" lifestyle.
Brother Ghost ..I stand corrected also that if it does happen in the animal kingdom ( male on male ...& female on female ) that this is also a minimal minority ..definitely not the norm for the billions of species in the animal kingdom. The "lower class " animals do not have the ability nor need for the choices that the human species have and competes with including the choices of bleaching of the black skin to become white etc..I do agree with your explanation on that.
no where else to go with this (LOL)
Salah
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