Gentlemen, the academic case being made is almost quaint. What other cases are there of this? Are we to by pass Stradivarius and Steinway and give pan makers a bligh? I love pan as much as you all but I want to keep it real. First off the instrument is much more important than the festival. Unfortunately that would probably leave many people's life work in the wayside but just like many guitar makers, piano makers. These have survived as businesses not as charities recipients. Quality, reliability and price. Why should pan be different? What we need are virtuosos of all nationalities playing all kinds of music alongside all kinds of instruments. Then we have musicians and music lovers playing the instrument because they have been exposed and inspired by it. I have heard and
Seen guitars in the hands of every nationality playing all kinds of music. That is the goal, my friends. Sadly,giving Bertie, Tony, Rudolph or Ellie any scale of award will not help that. I dare say even the Boogsie, Robbie and Ray will not take us there.
The generation that starts with the Liam Teagues and Gulston are who we should be supporting. We have to support pan in jazz and classical spheres, that is where the funding is. We have to push the youngsters in a different direction because they will become discouraged trying to feed from the festival trough when the fat cats are feeding their habits and making their pensions. Again, let's have some real ideas, think future not past
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I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where this discussion is going
.Are you trying to say that pan would be better off playing other types of music besides calypso based music?
Because that has been done since the pan was invented. At the same time they were learning to play calypso, they were learning mambo, classics, jazz and any other type of music suitable for percussion instruments.
And that was before panmen started becoming musically "educated".
An old timer like myself with limited pan skills even played hymns in a church back in the sixties.
Pan people have even invented and mastered their own musical genre, the Panorama classic, and panmen the world over do not feel complete unless they've mastered a Panorama arrangement, and dream of journeying to the "Mecca" of pan to test their skills in Trinidad Panorama, the ultimate pan festival.
Indeed , Panorama music has become classical pan music.
So, as far as music is concerned, I don't know where this discussion is going.
Judson Farray > Glenroy R JosephApril 25, 2011 at 4:45pm
I keep asking for precedent for this obligation to the past masters is required. Nobody is giving it. I fed up mention guitar and piano, what about Peruvian panpipes? All these string and percussive instrument seem to be present in the ancient cultures any way. It is social welfare and heritage authorities to look after all the contributors in all fields. People built Point Lisas, Pointe a Pierre and every hospital. Why does the art owe these guys anything? So we give them lifetime achievement awards and then what? I know I am sounding harsh but the real tribute needs infrastructure. The real tribute is to their work not the men really. I am repeating myself. We can take these guys to NAPA wine and dine, give them medals and would not be able to assemble a meaningful exhibition of their work. What a shame.
AND that is a job for historians now while the art continues to develop.
Mr Joseph, we are proud of all that has been accomplished thus far. This new crop of musicians will note be as satisfied with playing someone else's vision note for note like the previous crop. Not so long ago the better pannists were the ones most familiar with the runs that are now cliches. This generation want to express their individuality. Also steel band developed in the Count Basie and Duke Ellington orchestra era and well we aspired to symphony proportions. Well that does not work today when White Stripes is a boy on guitar and a girl on drums and vocals. I have a vision of a tenor and a guitar pan with drum and electric bass improvising jazz and blues like a piano, the guitar pan doing the left hand and the tenor doing the right.
Herbie Hancock tells a story about Miles Davis passing him some sheet music and instructing him to play what isn't there.
Think out of the box, man. Panorama will always have its cult following, every year I threaten to print Pan Jumbies Anonymous jerseys for all of us who start tingling when we approach the venue. When we see all the kids playing pan we are reminded that all young people are not bandits. When I see three women arrangers in the line up and one of them wins! I am more excited because it is a sign of progress. I love progress.
You guys who want to perpetuate the status quo be careful you do not become like the proponents of slavery, segregation and apartheid because one set of people build the country and the majority should just labour on their behalf. You can't have it both ways. The art is bigger than the instrument. Who is to say the big name tuners deserve perpetuating some are famously secretive. Boy, this devil's advocate thing is fun, I actually hope I am annoying some of you.
Peter Gray > Judson FarrayApril 25, 2011 at 6:03pm
Hi again, Judson:
The "precedent for this obligation to past masters" is simple -- how do they preserve and continue to enrich their musical heritage throughout Europe if not by teaching the works and lives of the past masters? From pre-school through university, every schooled young person in Europe is taught their Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, etc. as part of their education! Their continued involvement in that tradition is conciously nutured. It's a bit glib just to say "leave them to their own means" like all other musical and other artisans who have survived the ages. And yet we agree that some day it will have to be the case that the pan fraternity will have evolved to independence, both artistic and financial.
You're on point, Peter and like many young people Judson seems quite willing to dismiss the elders, leaving it up to the Americans and Europeans to honor the elders of the genre like Ellie Manette, Cobo Jack Riley and Neville Jules.
We never appreciate our own until others do.
And since Judson brought up jazz, he should check the history of the jazz greats. I'm sure that he isn't aware that Miles Davis actually recruited and mentored the likes of Herbie Hancock Wayne Shorter, as he himself was mentored by Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.
Miles worked closely with Coltrane and other greats and stayed current by incorporating younger musicians from different eras in his band.
As one of his biographers, Ian Carr said, ".....Miles often looked back, but he always moved forward............and anyone who doesn't look back is an idiot".
Peter Gray > Glenroy R JosephApril 26, 2011 at 10:02am
Yes, Glenroy. And I can envision a future when pan is entirely global geographically and culturally, and Trinis will be insisting (against the conventional myth of that future time) that "you know, pan really came from T&T?"
Peter
Judson Farray > Glenroy R JosephApril 25, 2011 at 8:39pm
Glenroy and Peter, thanks for your points. I certainly understand the point about the role of education in culturisation. In fact, on a personal note, I remember thinking in my science classes at school that Newton and even Curie and Co. were of historical not practical significance. That probably suggests that my thinking hasn't matured enough or my passion for progress is still potent.
Glenroy, i am very familiar with Carr's book on Miles. I mostly remember when Miles was asked by another guest why he was invited to the White House he responded "because I changed music five times" when asked what kind of music he responded simply "music".
Miles also practically managed and lead Parker's band during his time there. Practically being the key word. Thanks again, I hope what Cathryn said is true and the youngsters are reading.
Well said, Judson, but at the same time pan can't go forward (to the future) without acknowledging and appreciating its past, which is why we must credit the Bradeys and Holmans, Beverly Griffiths, Bertie Marshalls, Herman Browns, etc.. Because they built on the foundation and advanced both the art and the technology. I absolutely agree that the instrument is much larger than the petty festivals surrounding it, and needs to be globalized in the sense that you descrbe (integrated into the commercial mainstream), and furthermore, that only "fatcats" benefit from the petty festivals.
But I'm not sure the pan world really wants to be globalized or whether it would rather stick its head in the sand and pretend that pan has not already gone global. Simple: If T&T doesn't facilitate this transformation, then Japan or France will.
The History of Pan Music is rich in Jazz, Latin and Calypso just to name a few. Listen to Despers 1966 Melda. I have no problem with any one taking Pan and Pan music to the highest level for that is the desire of every Pannist but how could you say you are getting there without Tony, Bertie, Kellman and the Host of others who have Pan where it is today. What have all these Musically Educated players brought to the Dance. The ones who you suggest will get us there what have they invented or do you think Musically they are better than Boogsie, Ray, Robbiie or Dr. Jit. Always remember the war cry of Workers " Let Those who Labour Hold the Reins". Have our Pan Makers been rewarded by all those who now enjoy their years of Hard work and Sacrifice and are now filling their pockets with $$$$$ World Wide? Check those fellas in USA who have Pan Patent , what have they Invented ? Vultures I say, Big time Vultures. No one is asking for Charity, let the World give these Pioneers their just Reward. Please inform me when all those who now know how to take Pan forward Invent a new range of Pans or they could Compose a Piece Better than Bobby's " Revelation from Beyond" or Boogsie's ' Rain Forest" and " I Music" just to name a few. I have no problem with our people being Scholars , that is welcome by all but always remember the Bridges that you Crossed to get there. Thanks.
Judson Farray > Steve "Carter" K.April 25, 2011 at 8:26am
I am hearing Steve but only to a point. I cannot see the precedent for honoring the elders. That is not necessarily the job of the current musicians. I say again, many people in many walks of life have contributed. What about wire benders? They have been replaced by Chinese made bikinis and beads.
Do you know who invented the bass guitar or first amplified the guitar? Electric drum machines? Synthesizer? In my heart I feel like you, these guys are awesome, I am humbled whenever I am in their presence. I own a Guppy tenor that is 20 years old and is the best sounding pan wherever I take it. I have bought pans from Butch. I played (badly) shoulder to shoulder with Sterling Betancourt when he was still in London. But Steve, the reality is that duty is a historical one. We cannot stifle the up and coming because we are stifling progress. Like you imply, they will never contribute anything while the old guard are entitled.
True class will still break through, even after rock n roll replaced swing as popular music in the US, Satchmo, the old king of swing, still buss through with Wonderful World in the 60's. He wasn't entitled. They name the airport in New Orleans for him. People don't do well using heart in business.
You also seem very festival (panorama) oriented. This year we had a stink about appearance fees for panorama. Pannists arguing over whether they would get $2000 or $3000 TT. For the year. What is that? Semi professionalism? Quarter professionalism? It is a disgrace, is what it is? The arranger deserves his fee or fees. The tuner deserves his fees. But the player must play for .......... Charity? The arrangers and tuners want a closed shop and have good gatekeepers like yourself. I suggest you wear a lifejacket, Steve. Just like ragtime gave way to swing and swing gave way to bebop and bebop gave way to rhythm n blues, rnb gave way to soul to disco to funk to hip hop....... The young guns are coming hot and I can't wait.
The world economy depends taking advantage of other people's hard work and sacrifice. It even happens in families, I am living my life to be financially secure in my old age, not for my children to look after me and I hope to leave them a legacy. Break the cycle!
Pantrinbago and TUCO and mas band people need to organize and associate and do welfare for their older members, I will contribute but please do not hold back pan's future.
Cathryn, the thing the young pannists recognize that my friends Cecil and Steve do not is that all things are possible. They are part of the hip hop generation, an art form younger than pan and founded with a significant number of West Indians and producing millionaires despite many setbacks. A young black man saying he killed somebody on a CD should be banned but an old white man killing hundreds in his movies should be governor (that's a different discussion!).
These youth are seeing and hearing different, looking in a different direction. I am sure when they get somewhere they will back up and pay homage but for now we must break the mold. Music is a business. Pannists need to link up with the Chris Blackwell equivalents. We must help that happen. My thanks for your inspiring contribution. Keep posting.
Replies
.Are you trying to say that pan would be better off playing other types of music besides calypso based music?
Because that has been done since the pan was invented. At the same time they were learning to play calypso, they were learning mambo, classics, jazz and any other type of music suitable for percussion instruments.
And that was before panmen started becoming musically "educated".
An old timer like myself with limited pan skills even played hymns in a church back in the sixties.
Pan people have even invented and mastered their own musical genre, the Panorama classic, and panmen the world over do not feel complete unless they've mastered a Panorama arrangement, and dream of journeying to the "Mecca" of pan to test their skills in Trinidad Panorama, the ultimate pan festival.
Indeed , Panorama music has become classical pan music.
So, as far as music is concerned, I don't know where this discussion is going.
AND that is a job for historians now while the art continues to develop.
Mr Joseph, we are proud of all that has been accomplished thus far. This new crop of musicians will note be as satisfied with playing someone else's vision note for note like the previous crop. Not so long ago the better pannists were the ones most familiar with the runs that are now cliches. This generation want to express their individuality. Also steel band developed in the Count Basie and Duke Ellington orchestra era and well we aspired to symphony proportions. Well that does not work today when White Stripes is a boy on guitar and a girl on drums and vocals. I have a vision of a tenor and a guitar pan with drum and electric bass improvising jazz and blues like a piano, the guitar pan doing the left hand and the tenor doing the right.
Herbie Hancock tells a story about Miles Davis passing him some sheet music and instructing him to play what isn't there.
Think out of the box, man. Panorama will always have its cult following, every year I threaten to print Pan Jumbies Anonymous jerseys for all of us who start tingling when we approach the venue. When we see all the kids playing pan we are reminded that all young people are not bandits. When I see three women arrangers in the line up and one of them wins! I am more excited because it is a sign of progress. I love progress.
You guys who want to perpetuate the status quo be careful you do not become like the proponents of slavery, segregation and apartheid because one set of people build the country and the majority should just labour on their behalf. You can't have it both ways. The art is bigger than the instrument. Who is to say the big name tuners deserve perpetuating some are famously secretive. Boy, this devil's advocate thing is fun, I actually hope I am annoying some of you.
Hi again, Judson:
The "precedent for this obligation to past masters" is simple -- how do they preserve and continue to enrich their musical heritage throughout Europe if not by teaching the works and lives of the past masters? From pre-school through university, every schooled young person in Europe is taught their Bach, Handel, Haydn, Mozart, etc. as part of their education! Their continued involvement in that tradition is conciously nutured. It's a bit glib just to say "leave them to their own means" like all other musical and other artisans who have survived the ages. And yet we agree that some day it will have to be the case that the pan fraternity will have evolved to independence, both artistic and financial.
2 more cents.
Peter
You're on point, Peter and like many young people Judson seems quite willing to dismiss the elders, leaving it up to the Americans and Europeans to honor the elders of the genre like Ellie Manette, Cobo Jack Riley and Neville Jules.
We never appreciate our own until others do.
And since Judson brought up jazz, he should check the history of the jazz greats. I'm sure that he isn't aware that Miles Davis actually recruited and mentored the likes of Herbie Hancock Wayne Shorter, as he himself was mentored by Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.
Miles worked closely with Coltrane and other greats and stayed current by incorporating younger musicians from different eras in his band.
As one of his biographers, Ian Carr said, ".....Miles often looked back, but he always moved forward............and anyone who doesn't look back is an idiot".
Yes, Glenroy. And I can envision a future when pan is entirely global geographically and culturally, and Trinis will be insisting (against the conventional myth of that future time) that "you know, pan really came from T&T?"
Peter
Glenroy, i am very familiar with Carr's book on Miles. I mostly remember when Miles was asked by another guest why he was invited to the White House he responded "because I changed music five times" when asked what kind of music he responded simply "music".
Miles also practically managed and lead Parker's band during his time there. Practically being the key word. Thanks again, I hope what Cathryn said is true and the youngsters are reading.
Well said, Judson, but at the same time pan can't go forward (to the future) without acknowledging and appreciating its past, which is why we must credit the Bradeys and Holmans, Beverly Griffiths, Bertie Marshalls, Herman Browns, etc.. Because they built on the foundation and advanced both the art and the technology. I absolutely agree that the instrument is much larger than the petty festivals surrounding it, and needs to be globalized in the sense that you descrbe (integrated into the commercial mainstream), and furthermore, that only "fatcats" benefit from the petty festivals.
But I'm not sure the pan world really wants to be globalized or whether it would rather stick its head in the sand and pretend that pan has not already gone global. Simple: If T&T doesn't facilitate this transformation, then Japan or France will.
My 2 cents, Peter
Do you know who invented the bass guitar or first amplified the guitar? Electric drum machines? Synthesizer? In my heart I feel like you, these guys are awesome, I am humbled whenever I am in their presence. I own a Guppy tenor that is 20 years old and is the best sounding pan wherever I take it. I have bought pans from Butch. I played (badly) shoulder to shoulder with Sterling Betancourt when he was still in London. But Steve, the reality is that duty is a historical one. We cannot stifle the up and coming because we are stifling progress. Like you imply, they will never contribute anything while the old guard are entitled.
True class will still break through, even after rock n roll replaced swing as popular music in the US, Satchmo, the old king of swing, still buss through with Wonderful World in the 60's. He wasn't entitled. They name the airport in New Orleans for him. People don't do well using heart in business.
You also seem very festival (panorama) oriented. This year we had a stink about appearance fees for panorama. Pannists arguing over whether they would get $2000 or $3000 TT. For the year. What is that? Semi professionalism? Quarter professionalism? It is a disgrace, is what it is? The arranger deserves his fee or fees. The tuner deserves his fees. But the player must play for .......... Charity? The arrangers and tuners want a closed shop and have good gatekeepers like yourself. I suggest you wear a lifejacket, Steve. Just like ragtime gave way to swing and swing gave way to bebop and bebop gave way to rhythm n blues, rnb gave way to soul to disco to funk to hip hop....... The young guns are coming hot and I can't wait.
The world economy depends taking advantage of other people's hard work and sacrifice. It even happens in families, I am living my life to be financially secure in my old age, not for my children to look after me and I hope to leave them a legacy. Break the cycle!
Pantrinbago and TUCO and mas band people need to organize and associate and do welfare for their older members, I will contribute but please do not hold back pan's future.
These youth are seeing and hearing different, looking in a different direction. I am sure when they get somewhere they will back up and pay homage but for now we must break the mold. Music is a business. Pannists need to link up with the Chris Blackwell equivalents. We must help that happen. My thanks for your inspiring contribution. Keep posting.
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