I remember the first sets of double tenors that Burch Kellman, Karloff Alleyne and them made for our band Scarlet Symphony (an offshoot of Southern Marines) in Marabella in 1966.
Then in 67 Silvertones from Sando placed second in the music festival (unsponsored category) with pans tuned by Allan Gervais and Errol Moore.
I joined Silvertones later that year, and though my pans were tenor bass and cellos, no one could convince that Burch, Moore or the late Allan made second rate double tenors back then.
And those double tenors were distinctly different pans from the double seconds, and arrangers like the late Michael Alleyne (Scarlet Symphony) and Kenrick "Kicker" George (Silvertones) definitely knew how to use them
And, that's over forty years ago. I'm sure Burch and others must have learnt a thing or two since then!
BEDE LOPEZ > Glenroy R JosephSeptember 16, 2011 at 4:03pm
Now a days, if an arranger utilize the Double Tenor properly, you still will be missing that specific tone, If you use the second pans exactly like the Double Tenors both of them will sound the same, YOU WILL NOT HAVE THAT ORGAN TONE, and people that know bout that TONE will back me up 100%. If I have a Double Tenor with that specific tone I will definitely play better, cause I will be feeling the music more due to that Organ tone, People play an instrument much better when its tonal quality has elevated.
BEDE LOPEZ > Glenroy R JosephSeptember 16, 2011 at 3:51pm
I still think that Bertie Marshall and Wallace Austin has kept back their secret on that Organ tone.Birch is the person that blends my Double Tenor presently since Wallace left NY and went back to T'dad. When I took my pan to him, he admitted to me that .quote, "the tone that Bertie and Wallace get on the Double Tenor, I can't get it" unquote.Since that time he has been blending my pan but it has lost that Organ Tone (but it's well blended). I met Birch (now coming out in the tuning world) in the 60's when Michigan (deceased) brought him on St Paul St (behind the bridge) to make some tenors for City Symphony, and he has come a long way, right now he and Guppy Brown are the first 2 top class tuners in the world (in my book). Remember we are not talking bout overall tuner/tuners, I am talking bout a specific instrument (DOUBLE TENOR) with that Organ tone, years ago I used to call it the WANG, WANG tone.
Peter Gray > Glenroy R JosephSeptember 16, 2011 at 11:16am
You imply a valid point, Glenroy ... that it is the tuning of the instrument that gives it a DT tone versus a second pan tone. And it is up to arrangers to utilise the instrument uniquely.
are u kidding??? what happen to Guppie brown and pompey and butch????? its not so much the pan builders who turned the D tenor into a kind of D second its that the half ass arrangers cant arrange for the double tenor ITs a Viola not a violin or Soprano instrument or a tenor (double second) instrument. Bradley found me very usable in his arrangements for Despers USA and I was flabbergasted that he recognised me (and my cousins Eugene and Pedro also) He is still the master.
paddy corea
Peter Gray > paddy coreaSeptember 16, 2011 at 10:01am
Paddy Corea:
It's not that arrangers "can't" arrange for the DT, but that they haven't. Formerly, the DT was the instrument of melodic harmony, and covers a range akin to second violin, though the latter often plays the melody itself. And Bradley did make use of it fully.
Peter
paddy corea > Peter GraySeptember 18, 2011 at 7:57pm
Peter believe me THEY CANT. Not many musicians (all sorts) know the VIOLA level, thats what the Double Tenor is. NOt what you call 2nd violin (its a VIOLA,, slightly larger and tuned slighter lower and arranged for precisely)
BEDE LOPEZ > paddy coreaSeptember 16, 2011 at 12:30am
Aye, Paddy, I doubt if you are 60 yet, I am 67. For you to say "what happen to Guppy brown Pompey and Birch they are top of the line tuners, but we talking bout DOUBLE TENORS, not double tenors that sound like double seconds. You never really experience Bertie Marshall and Wallace Austin DOUBLE TENORS in the early to middle 60's, with that Organ tone, I can tell. Even tho, if the arrangers arrange the present day double tenors correctly, that Organ tone will be missing.
paddy corea > BEDE LOPEZSeptember 18, 2011 at 8:01pm
Bede let me surprise you. WE ARE the same age. Wallace was the last person to tune my DT (made by the late Mikey Enoch) It has always had a distinct tonal quality from all the other pans in any band that I have played with (in St Vincent, Antigua or NY) Keep up the good work man
BEDE LOPEZ > paddy coreaSeptember 18, 2011 at 9:25pm
Welcome to the Age group Paddy, But you know something, Mikey Enoch made your DT and wallace was still able to give it that special Tone, but if Wallace had made the DT himself it would be something else. Paddy, I glad we can carry on these discussions without any animosity , we can learn from each other.
OH, Paddy, since you played with desperadoes, did you know Gunga Din (deceased), I knew him in Joyland and the Tash brothers(I think one of the Tash is still playing) Peace my brother
Replies
I remember the first sets of double tenors that Burch Kellman, Karloff Alleyne and them made for our band Scarlet Symphony (an offshoot of Southern Marines) in Marabella in 1966.
Then in 67 Silvertones from Sando placed second in the music festival (unsponsored category) with pans tuned by Allan Gervais and Errol Moore.
I joined Silvertones later that year, and though my pans were tenor bass and cellos, no one could convince that Burch, Moore or the late Allan made second rate double tenors back then.
And those double tenors were distinctly different pans from the double seconds, and arrangers like the late Michael Alleyne (Scarlet Symphony) and Kenrick "Kicker" George (Silvertones) definitely knew how to use them
And, that's over forty years ago. I'm sure Burch and others must have learnt a thing or two since then!
Now a days, if an arranger utilize the Double Tenor properly, you still will be missing that specific tone, If you use the second pans exactly like the Double Tenors both of them will sound the same, YOU WILL NOT HAVE THAT ORGAN TONE, and people that know bout that TONE will back me up 100%. If I have a Double Tenor with that specific tone I will definitely play better, cause I will be feeling the music more due to that Organ tone, People play an instrument much better when its tonal quality has elevated.
You imply a valid point, Glenroy ... that it is the tuning of the instrument that gives it a DT tone versus a second pan tone. And it is up to arrangers to utilise the instrument uniquely.
Peter
are u kidding??? what happen to Guppie brown and pompey and butch????? its not so much the pan builders who turned the D tenor into a kind of D second its that the half ass arrangers cant arrange for the double tenor ITs a Viola not a violin or Soprano instrument or a tenor (double second) instrument. Bradley found me very usable in his arrangements for Despers USA and I was flabbergasted that he recognised me (and my cousins Eugene and Pedro also) He is still the master.
paddy corea
Paddy Corea:
It's not that arrangers "can't" arrange for the DT, but that they haven't. Formerly, the DT was the instrument of melodic harmony, and covers a range akin to second violin, though the latter often plays the melody itself. And Bradley did make use of it fully.
Peter
Welcome to the Age group Paddy, But you know something, Mikey Enoch made your DT and wallace was still able to give it that special Tone, but if Wallace had made the DT himself it would be something else. Paddy, I glad we can carry on these discussions without any animosity , we can learn from each other.
OH, Paddy, since you played with desperadoes, did you know Gunga Din (deceased), I knew him in Joyland and the Tash brothers(I think one of the Tash is still playing) Peace my brother
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