When Steel Talks

Everything Related to the Steelpan Instrument and Music

Who is the Inventor of Today's DOUBLE SECOND?

Can somebody tell me Who is the Inventor of Today's DOUBLE SECOND that is Standardized presently? I thought it was Ellie Mannette, I always find myself saying  "Ellie Double Second".(See Attachment).

Views: 1455


Reply to This

Replies to This Discussion

Riff Jammz, You got me laughing, (You know him too, EH) lol

What is the today's Double Seconds?

Patrick Ramdoo is absolutely correct. the first steelband to use amplification on the road was TRIPOLI several years before Bertie. Bertie is an INNOVATOR not an INVENTOR. 2 MEN STAND OUT AS INVENTORS OF PAN  Mr TONY WILLIAMS and ELLIE MANNETTE. The rest are merely iINNOVATORS.. THE OXFORD DICTIONARY MAKES THE MEANING OF THOSE 2 WORDS VERY CLEAR. paddy corea


The Double-Second was invented by Belgrave Bonaparte and was first played publicly at the 1954 Music Festival. This is according to Neville Jules and is quoted in All Stars' Book. Ray Holman also endorses this (see Pg. 7 of A Myrna Nurse's Unheard Voices).

The creation of a man from Dixieland was a Double-Tenor, not a Double-Second. Listen to Neville Jules:"A White Trinidadian gave me a picture from a newspaper article of another Dixieland man, a White Trini, with a double-tenor. This photo predates Bertie Marshall. You can tell by the clothing of the people in the photo; that pan was in the man's lap- two pans bolted together. So someone connected with Dixieland is not getting his due credit..." cf Unheard Voices, p.35

Rennie, Consequently, everyone suffered due credit for their various inventions and innovations. That is why the steel pan as we know it in the conventional way, is in public domain. The inventors virtually gave these inventions away to others for free, simply by bringing their inventions on the roads to show off. Others looked at them and copied ideas and went back and did adjustments to those ideas. Now that is normal human interactions which exist across the globe. Even if the inventors knew about patents and they patented their inventions, it still doesn't stop human from copying ideas from each other. Now if the copiers added something more, that something if it is brand new, would have be patentable. That is how Patents work. patents cannot prevent humans from coping patented or non Patented products. but if the guy who saw the welded double second or tenor added more notes to his pan or changed the notes around or changed the shape of the notes or welded the pans in such a way that they can fold or detach or be taken off the instrument entirely and placed on wheels instead, those changes are patentable. So early inventors really did not steal as such. there might have been a few who did that. But the majority of the inventors added new ideas to inventions which were their own spin on a new concept. If those new ideas did not exist before, then the inventor is no thief. Therefore I do not subscribe to calling inventors thieves because someone found an earlier invention of double seconds. unless we can prove that the double seconds created after the first apparent one had several distinct differences, they are two separated and unique inventions. this happens with all world products. lets us don't call our early pan inventors thieves now. Those who were honest and saw something or heard about something and did something slightly different that something was their unique difference. otherwise the universe does not allow one man to be an island of creation. it just doesn't work that way. This is what we need to understand about the early pan inventions. Remember the world is watching us. no one stole anything from the pan. the pan is still ours. every person who created something is an innovator of the pan and helped to place it on the world map. 

The term "inventor" suggests to me a single individual or group of individuals coming up with a unique idea . sometimes in secret, to create something that was totally new , like for example the telephone .

My understanding of the steelpan is that it was a collective creation , with many people exchanging ideas , copying from each other , improving on existing ideas and so on.

There are certain individuals who were in the forefront of this process ; we are familiar with the names of these innovators, and they deserve that credit.

But credit for the creation of the steel pan family as we know it has to be shared; it cannot be the province of any one individual or even group of individuals.

Too many have contributed in various ways to its creation for this to be true or realistic.

Which is why the instruments should have been claimed as a national instrument , patented as such , and whatever benefits gained,  shared among the innovators.

However , as stated before , steelpan manufacturing technology now exists in the public domain.

There are instructions readily available in libraries and on the internet for the manufacturing of pans , and as far as i know , no one has tried to restrict the sharing of this knowledge. 

Now , as a layperson , I do not understand the references to fourths and fifths and all that technical stuff ( i was just an amateur panist who played tenor bass and cellos), but I do know that as far as patents in the basics of steelpan manufacturing are concerned , that ship has sailed , that bird has flown the coop , the cat is out of the bag, etc. etc.

Just my two cents , people for what it is worth.

I don't know if BELGRAVE BONAPARTE  created the double seconds but when he and Bloc "brother"left Paris I took over from Bloc on tenor pan. I should not laugh but  one of the guys told me when they were doing  the festival in Globe cinema  some time ago Belgrave  was calling the double guitar man to go on stage but he said "Ah cyar come ah man stanning up in meh pan."

I think Belgrave pans were so that you play with three sticks.

I always thought it was Ellie Mannette this was my understanding. Today I noticed many pantuners have taken out several notes in the pan eg We used to have 3 Bb.s 3 Bs 3 Abs, 2 Fs on the outside of the pan and now most pan tuner only have two. Look at the article in When Steel talks "Towards Standardized Pans 1988. A story written by Bert Boldon about Ellie Mannette


© 2020   Created by When Steel Talks.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service